Elisa Carrió He looks melancholy at his house in Exaltación de la Cruz, which took him years to build but now he is leaving to move to the Capital. The leader of the Civic Coalition says that she can no longer support it. Carrió is worried about the economic crisis, about the climate of violence and about what she says she began to see for a while. The shift towards an “extreme right” of sectors such as Milei’s and the one that within the PRO, according to his view, commands Patricia Bullrich and the former president Mauricio Macri. The former deputy maintains that this path can end in a social crisis and repression.
Despite everything, avoid criticizing the rival of Horacio Rodriguez Larreta inside Juntos. “I respect her, I will never speak ill of her,” he says.
- Why do you support Horacio Rodríguez Larreta and not Patricia Bullrich?
- We worked with his teams all last year and I traveled with (Diego) Santilli always and the great battle is for the province of Buenos Aires. The only opposition candidate who can beat Kicillof is Santilli. Anyone else who gets votes in October makes Kicillof win. And that does not guarantee governability in Argentina.
- Are you concerned about the level of confrontation reached by the inmate of Together for Change?
No. If there is someone who is not confrontational, it is Larreta and the truth is that I do not deal much with the statements. But there is a debate of ideas, because the PRO is divided between sectors of the center and shifting to the extreme right. And when the Coalition of Together for Change was created in 2015, which allowed us to defeat Kirchnerism, it was done on the basis of not leaving the center, the place of convergence. And in the current crisis in the country and what is going to live until next year -due to the recession, inflation, the devaluation jump that there may be- you cannot go from one shoulder to another.
- Is society angry?
- I find many voices within society that want repression, a very strong repression that even includes the possibility of death, there is anger, anxiety, and it is legitimate. But be careful that if you go to both extremes and the two extremes play, one taking streets and the other repressing what may be… I don’t want to name it, but I no longer just see it, I’m sorry. We are all great and we have conscience. And if some lost it, it’s their problem. The slogans are not true. What is true is that we are going to emerge step by step, and that only in July of next year will we be able to stabilize and grow. That is why our projects are productive. But if in a context of brutal crisis, which is the one that is coming at the end of the year, whatever the government, you want to adjust a society, especially the middle classes, you can have a very strong crisis of legitimacy. I am thinking that in times of crisis the boat has to hold up. And to sustain itself, it has to have consistency, which is why our lists have experienced parliamentarians who are going to be key.
And if Sergio Massa’s formula wins?
- He is a person I accused of corruption, of ties to drug trafficking. And if he wins it would be repeating Argentine history. Again familism, again a man and a madness for power. Folie à deux means madness for two, here it is the madness of power.
- And who are the two?
- Massa and Malena. It is the corsi e ricorsi of Néstor and Cristina.
- In the end Cristina was not a candidate, did she keep her word?
- And because he knows he’s going to have house arrest. She turned 70. Knowing that she is going to be sentenced, obviously, because she committed so many crimes, the sentence is certain, she chose home detention.
-Why does he end up endorsing Massa who wanted to put her in jail?
- Because Peronism takes away your leadership. Peronism when you lose power takes away your leadership.
-Is it the decline of Cristina Kirchner then?
- Yes, she finished. The issue is that to hide it, she gave power to her enemy. But she’s pretending that she lost power. With which next year, if she retains the province of Buenos Aires, she will actually be in opposition to Massa. And Massa, on the other hand, is supported by the usual ones, by those who supported Duhalde. They are the same characters from the 2001 coup.
Sergio Massa and Malena Galmarini are like Néstor and Cristina Kirchner”.
- It was always said that Larreta is a friend of Massa
- He has a personal friendship, because the wives were friends.
- And how do you like that?
- The truth is that nobody messes with my friends. Another thing are companies. And in this case, the real and deep links are with (Cristian) Ritondo. And if not, ask in the investigations of the federal court of San Isidro.
- Are you worried about the Javier Milei factor?
- I am concerned that the anger will turn into a vote. I worry that this society says “kill them all”. I care about what he feels and thinks. Because violence plus violence is war.
The last conversation with Macri was last year. She was sincere, as always, and it seemed to me that there was no sense anymore.
What if Milei doesn’t win but forms a large bloc in Congress?
- I don’t think so. It seems that there is a lot of business in terms of benches in that space. If what your former candidate, (Carlos) Eguía declared, is like that, those votes are sold. Many opportunists do that: they fold, they get to Congress and then they sell out. The deputies escape him.
- With the current level of tension, will they be able to reach an agreement after PASO, whoever wins?
- Plural ideas are barbaric and there must be a willingness to agree. You can’t confuse that with aggression. If you say “advantageous”, you speak of the personal. I respect her and personally love Patricia Bullrich, but I want to talk about politics, not about her.
- But she did talk about you this week. She said that she has a “selective memory” and that she was “relegated from politics”.
- Sounds good to me, I retired at 62 years old. If I am here now it is because of personal conscience and beliefs. If I was opportunistic I stay home and watch the show. I will never speak ill of her, we have different characters and different positions but I love her. Although now I am concerned about a drift that cannot be stopped. I assume myself as old, as a loser, everything. But I have a voice and experience and a right to speak. The case of Macri is different, where it was a friendly political society.
- He said he doesn’t love him so much anymore
- We were never friends. He doesn’t come to my birthday, I don’t go to his. There is a political friendship that diminished.
- He said that he plays so that he loses together.
- It can be a variable, yes. The experience of former presidents is that they don’t want someone from their own party to win.
-Haven’t you talked to Macri for a long time?
Since last year. We had a sincere conversation, as always, and it seemed to me that it no longer made sense. It does not mean that I do not recognize your leadership in a part of the PRO.
- Do you think Larreta or Bullrich win?
- I have more certain what will happen in the country in the next six months than this election. And we are going to experience the most difficult year in our history.
- More than 2001?
- Yes, and we have to have less anger and more reason and temperance.
Parlasur and the crisis in Jujuy
Why did she end up dropping her presidential candidacy at the last minute to be a Parlasur legislator?
I already had my candidate for vice president, who was Alfonso Prat-Gay, we were going to do a test campaign because we didn’t even have the money to do the ballots. I do not finance myself with businessmen. But since all the other candidates had dropped out and I was not going to get more than two or three points with this system, I thought it was good that it was decided between two. So no one says “Carrió took so-and-so out of him.” And for me, going to Parlasur, a place with less competition, gave me peace.
Is Parlasur devalued?
Yes. It is a dead person that must be resurrected. But he can play an important role if progress is made in regional agricultural, market, and arms trafficking defense policies. There are pressing issues. I am as well known in Uruguay and Paraguay as here. It is an activity that can make sense.
What position are they going to have with the Venezuelan legislators of Nicolás Maduro that they have to assume?
No, we are for the suspension. The inter-American clause of treaties and agreements says that the only ones that can integrate this type of institutions are states that respect the Republic, democracy and human rights. It is not a political opinion, it is a constitutional mandate.
And with Fabián “Pepín” Rodriguez Simón who is a fugitive from Justice?
I don’t know, that has a judicial issue, it will be resolved there. If now all the benches are renewed, that’s it.
- The ruling party has now prosecuted this constitutional reform and points out that there was “savage repression” in Jujuy
- Let them prosecute, but the right to movement is so important because it includes physical freedom. I believe in the demonstration, I was the first to be on a picket line inside, and I am not with the principle of the repressive order. But the right to demonstrate must be made compatible with the right to circulate. And this has to be guaranteed, regulated.
